There are  A LOT of stories out there today, but not much news beyond the Modern Warfare leak and SEGA's financials...

aspro said:

They are the most self-loathing group I've lived amongst (though I've never lived in Iceland).

I heard Finland is very depressing also. And Japan has the highest suicide rate in the worlds, so that must count for something.

aspro said:

Iga_Bobovic said:

robio said:

Iga_Bobovic said:

About Anonymous, there is no such thing as Anonymous organisation. It has no structure, no leaders, no application forms. It simply does not exist. There are only individuals and should be treated like that.

Depends on who you believe. A few interviews were put out recently after the PSN attack and a couple members have stated that while there is not a leader there is a council that makes decisions on what targets or sites to attack.

Calling BS on that. There are no such things as members either. I can now proclaim that I am Anonymous, you can do the same. You can attack PSN while I claim I did not do it. So which one is Anonymous? Both? None? Heck we can start working together and make councils and stuff and call ourselves Anonymous. Anonymous does not exist, it is just an idea that started as a joke. They are an easy scape goat.

Iga --

As usual you are hanging your entire premise on a key word, designed to give the opposition any foundation and that is "organization".  Okay, let's instead call them a "movement".  Instead of a terrorist "organization" let's just agree that htey are a terrorist "movement". (And they are terrorists -- they seek to terrorize innocents in order to manipulate them).

They are an organized movement however.  Who approves their press statements? Obviously they have a leadership group -- or who would decide what their ethos is (anti-corporatists).  By the very fact they co-ordinate attacks indicates organization.

Just because their membership is amorphous does not mean they a movement.  You could easily substitute the words Al Qaeda for Anonymous in your statement. -- Do you deny they exist also?  Oh wait... you probably do think that... never mind.

Are you really comparing Anonymous to terrorists? Really!

And who says their press release is approved by anyone. And yes their is some organization between some individuals, but there is no control what so ever. If someone decides to attack PSN, they have no control over it. And their ethos is varied, sometimes it is for the lulz, sometimes they actually do nice things and sometimes they do bad things. It is like a forum, there are bunch of people, an action of a individual or group of individuals is just that. Everyone is anonymous and therefore no one is anonymous.

Of course there are splinter groups that are much more like an organization. Anonymous does not exist (in the traditional sense), but these splinter groups do.

Al Qaeda has some paralles, but it is more organized. If I would fight for gay rights, no way that someone would take me serious when I claim that I am Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda has a political goal something that Anonymous is lacking. Al Queda has training camps to train recruits, they finance attacks and spread propaganda. But even Al Queda is more like a movement in some ways. They are not a big evil Cobra army like in GI Joe, they are also amorphous .

Iga_Bobovic said:

Yes, I called you opinion idiotic, because it was just that, idiotic. I suggest if you do not want to be called like that, you should not make idiotic statements. And I don't give a shit about credentials. Mine own or yours. And what has my Master of Science in Mechanical engineering got to do with this topic? I do not consider myselft intelligent,not my fault other people think that. That there problem, the only bad thing is that they expect great thing from you only to get dissapointed. Again their problem.

Talking about hypocrytes.

bugsonglass said:

I  I for one am eternally thankful for that and I think it's foolish to be arrogant and condemning towards the US even if their foreign policy may be at times be gang ho.  

You just claimed it would be foolish and arrogant to condemm the US. Yet you have trouble someone calling this opinion idiotic. Wrong actions should always be condemmed, why is it so hard to accept that we judge every individual to the same standard? A War crime is a war crime, no matter if it is done by Serbia, America or Russia.

And what has the fact that I was born in Holland have to do with it. So I am guilty because the piece of land I currently live in has done some evil things in the past and are still doing evil things right now? Heck my ancestors did not even live in that country back then, they were hiding in the mountains of Montenegro fighting Turks back then. And even ancestoral guilt is crap. You should be judged by the things you have done as a individual and not something your country has done or your ancestors have done.

And I know that the standard of life is great in Holland. It is much better than the US for example. But that does not mean I agree with them , I would like that the market opens up for all goods in the EU. I would like that African countries have a fair shot in trading with Europe. Not sure how it makes me a hypocrite.

And could you please name one of these stable Middle Eastern democracies? The only thing that approaches a democracy is Turkey and they are not fully there yet

Your first paragraph ... I didn't mean that at all.  When I mentioned "credentials" I was referring to whatever it is internally be it facts, thought processes or general principles which shape your attitude, not something specific.  I wasn't at all referring to your education unless that is something you yourself consider as a credential.

Anyway, I agree with you that something wrong or unfair needs to outed and condemned.  I didn't mean that the US nor any other government or institution should have the freedom to commit attrocities and not be held accountable for.  My phrasing was wrong, and accept you calling me out for it.  The reason for that is that it annoys me no end to see people in the western world (including the US) hurry to condemn the US for being the evil empire before stopping to think for a minute that the US has fought through the years to safeguard and secure their safety and their freedom to do this very thing.

The fact that Assange for example was happy to leak US secrets was because he felt he was safe to do so.  Why did he not publish truths from China or a whole host of other countries where the governments commit attrocities and human rights violations (or even genocides) on a daily basis.  Because he would get a bullet in the head that's why.  But people are quicker to shout "Fuck the USA" or protest their anger towards it ... than to shout "Fuck China" for example.  Or, "Fuck Russia" ... and we know their government is commiting their fair share of attrocities.

I'm sorry I mentioned your country's dark past, of course it is not your doing.  It is once again the attitude people have about how the US should be brought to justice and held accountable for whatever it's ever done through history, but no one bothers to mention all the outher countries being held accountable.  Even the prissy prissy civilised olde democracies of Europe.  I'm not saying the US shouldn't be held accountable, they should all be.  I'm not saying you should have guilt for the country you live in or for your ancestors or whatever.  I fully agree with you that one should just be responsible for their own actions only,

And I didn't say anywhere that there are Middle East democracies.  On the contrary I was saying that in the instances where the US got involved (namely Iraq and Afghanistan) they have been in earnest trying to help establish some kind of democracy.  As opposed to many european imperialist powers which left countries in tatters and those countries are still tormented by civil war many decades afterwards.

All I was basically trying to say, and the last thing I will say on the matter, is that the US has done and is doing a lot of good which it doesn't get credit for.  And many people feel hatred or resentment towards it for the things which many other countries (which the same people may feel sympathetic towards) are doing and are doing to a much worse degree except the people there don't have the freedom to even speak about it.

Iga_Bobovic said:

aspro said:

They are the most self-loathing group I've lived amongst (though I've never lived in Iceland).

I heard Finland is very depressing also. And Japan has the highest suicide rate in the worlds, so that must count for something.

aspro said:

Iga_Bobovic said:

robio said:

Iga_Bobovic said:

About Anonymous, there is no such thing as Anonymous organisation. It has no structure, no leaders, no application forms. It simply does not exist. There are only individuals and should be treated like that.

Depends on who you believe. A few interviews were put out recently after the PSN attack and a couple members have stated that while there is not a leader there is a council that makes decisions on what targets or sites to attack.

Calling BS on that. There are no such things as members either. I can now proclaim that I am Anonymous, you can do the same. You can attack PSN while I claim I did not do it. So which one is Anonymous? Both? None? Heck we can start working together and make councils and stuff and call ourselves Anonymous. Anonymous does not exist, it is just an idea that started as a joke. They are an easy scape goat.

Iga --

As usual you are hanging your entire premise on a key word, designed to give the opposition any foundation and that is "organization".  Okay, let's instead call them a "movement".  Instead of a terrorist "organization" let's just agree that htey are a terrorist "movement". (And they are terrorists -- they seek to terrorize innocents in order to manipulate them).

They are an organized movement however.  Who approves their press statements? Obviously they have a leadership group -- or who would decide what their ethos is (anti-corporatists).  By the very fact they co-ordinate attacks indicates organization.

Just because their membership is amorphous does not mean they a movement.  You could easily substitute the words Al Qaeda for Anonymous in your statement. -- Do you deny they exist also?  Oh wait... you probably do think that... never mind.

Are you really comparing Anonymous to terrorists? Really!

And who says their press release is approved by anyone. And yes their is some organization between some individuals, but there is no control what so ever. If someone decides to attack PSN, they have no control over it. And their ethos is varied, sometimes it is for the lulz, sometimes they actually do nice things and sometimes they do bad things. It is like a forum, there are bunch of people, an action of a individual or group of individuals is just that. Everyone is anonymous and therefore no one is anonymous.

Of course there are splinter groups that are much more like an organization. Anonymous does not exist (in the traditional sense), but these splinter groups do.

Al Qaeda has some paralles, but it is more organized. If I would fight for gay rights, no way that someone would take me serious when I claim that I am Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda has a political goal something that Anonymous is lacking. Al Queda has training camps to train recruits, they finance attacks and spread propaganda. But even Al Queda is more like a movement in some ways. They are not a big evil Cobra army like in GI Joe, they are also amorphous .

I did not say they are like a TO, I said they are a TO.  Press releases must be approved, because otherwise we'd get a few thousand a day.

Yes, AQ and Anon are movements, not organizations, but even movements have organization -- otherwise they are just philosophies.

I think they are more like bullies, usually they cause mischief and irritation, they do not spread fear for a certain political goal. Heck the ones that attacked PSN, are nothing more than ordinary thiefs.

Also terrorist is a political term. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

How long before we get a hacker war between the USA vs China? There is your storyline for your next Call of Duty Vader!

bugsonglass said:

Your first paragraph ... I didn't mean that at all.  When I mentioned "credentials" I was referring to whatever it is internally be it facts, thought processes or general principles which shape your attitude, not something specific.  I wasn't at all referring to your education unless that is something you yourself consider as a credential.

Anyway, I agree with you that something wrong or unfair needs to outed and condemned.  I didn't mean that the US nor any other government or institution should have the freedom to commit attrocities and not be held accountable for.  My phrasing was wrong, and accept you calling me out for it.  The reason for that is that it annoys me no end to see people in the western world (including the US) hurry to condemn the US for being the evil empire before stopping to think for a minute that the US has fought through the years to safeguard and secure their safety and their freedom to do this very thing.

The fact that Assange for example was happy to leak US secrets was because he felt he was safe to do so.  Why did he not publish truths from China or a whole host of other countries where the governments commit attrocities and human rights violations (or even genocides) on a daily basis.  Because he would get a bullet in the head that's why.  But people are quicker to shout "Fuck the USA" or protest their anger towards it ... than to shout "Fuck China" for example.  Or, "Fuck Russia" ... and we know their government is commiting their fair share of attrocities.

I'm sorry I mentioned your country's dark past, of course it is not your doing.  It is once again the attitude people have about how the US should be brought to justice and held accountable for whatever it's ever done through history, but no one bothers to mention all the outher countries being held accountable.  Even the prissy prissy civilised olde democracies of Europe.  I'm not saying the US shouldn't be held accountable, they should all be.  I'm not saying you should have guilt for the country you live in or for your ancestors or whatever.  I fully agree with you that one should just be responsible for their own actions only,

And I didn't say anywhere that there are Middle East democracies.  On the contrary I was saying that in the instances where the US got involved (namely Iraq and Afghanistan) they have been in earnest trying to help establish some kind of democracy.  As opposed to many european imperialist powers which left countries in tatters and those countries are still tormented by civil war many decades afterwards.

All I was basically trying to say, and the last thing I will say on the matter, is that the US has done and is doing a lot of good which it doesn't get credit for.  And many people feel hatred or resentment towards it for the things which many other countries (which the same people may feel sympathetic towards) are doing and are doing to a much worse degree except the people there don't have the freedom to even speak about it.

When you are the best everyone wants to bring you down and we are the best. Its exactly what is happening to the Miami Heat, everyone wants to hate hate hate cause they are so damn jealous.

Dvader said:

When you are the best everyone wants to bring you down and we are the best.

Best in what?

Iga_Bobovic said:

Best in what?

In being the best.

Iga_Bobovic said:

Bugsy there are  Wikileaks about Russia and China, but no one seems to care. The reason people are critical about the US is because you live in a US dominated hemisphere. Why would people say fuck russia, when russia has nothing to do with their current situation. People in Poland for example were indeed saying fuck Soviet Union back in the Cold War. Behind closed doors, perhaps even in their thoughts, but they did.

People in Georgia (the country Georgia Vader not the state. (laws in Holland state that I have to insult Vader once per post)) probably have the fuck Russia feeling daily. I agree that I find the politics of relying on America annoying. But then again America so much money on defense, might as well use it. They might as well just cancel the country and just me a giant army for hire. Like the Peacekeepers in Farscape. They could transform Florida in one giant human shield (oh another Vader insult).

I wish Holland would not follow after America blindly, but then again I will not lose sleep over it. For I have no allegiance with any single country. I think countries are some of the most stupid shit people have invented. I see no countries, I just see stupid lines some hairless apes scribbled on a map.

I dont understand how that is an insult. You are so much better than this, you are slipping.

Don't worry one day aliens will invade the Earth and we will stop acting as a group of nations and finally be united as one species. We're fighting for our right to live, to exist and should we win the day, the 4th of July will no longer be known as an American holiday, but as the day when the world declared in one voice, 'We will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight! We're going to live on, we're going to survive.' Today we celebrate our independence day!"

And America will save the world.

Dvader said:

I dont understand how that is an insult.

Wait was it too complicated for you? Dammit I thought you already passed the intelligence of a shrimp. Oh well, guess I overestimated you again.

Dvader said:

Don't worry one day aliens will invade the Earth and we will stop acting as a group of nations and finally be united as one species. We're fighting for our right to live, to exist and should we win the day, the 4th of July will no longer be known as an American holiday, but as the day when the world declared in one voice, 'We will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight! We're going to live on, we're going to survive.' Today we celebrate our independence day!"

And America will save the world.

But one thing always bothered me. Why independence day? Should had not be 'survival of the species' day? Or 'Fuck yeah we are not obliterated' day? Or, 'I can't believe Anonymous was actually good for something once' day.