Forum > Gaming Discussion > Wil Natal Be Utter garbage?
Wil Natal Be Utter garbage?
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Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:14:19
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When the Wii remote was announced my response was, "As long as they release a real controller as well, that's fine, I'll use that and they can have their gimmick".  Now since then, I've seen the greatness of the device for pointer shooters, NMH, Boomblox etc.. even though I much prefer the classic controller in most other games, but I can at least see that the mo-con has merit.

Now that Natal is coming out, I hear a lot of the same kind of reactions I once had for the Wii motion control.  I personally think that it is utter garbage, I've played the eye-toy extensively on the PS2 and Sony is correct, without buttons it is a fun distraction, but it is not an engaging gaming experience over the long run.

Are you guys buying into Natal? If not, how do you justify your rejection of it if you have embraced mo-con in the Wii?

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Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:18:41
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With the Wiimote we all could imagine all these crazy things. Like light sabre fighting, FPS, RTS, etc. With Natal, I can hardly see it work except for Mini games. Moving your character would prove troublesome without an analog stick. Heck how the hell is it supposed to work with fitness games? There is no way that Natal can measure your weight, unlike the balance board. Seems to limiting.
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Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:22:49
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Controller-less gaming is definitely not for me. I'm an open minded person when it comes to new tech in gaming (I was initially very excited by the possibilities of the Wii Remote; waggle kinda ruined it for me, though). However, I never liked EyeToy, and Natal seems like the same thing only worse.

I am interested in Sony's Wand, though. It at least looks like it could be fun to use.
Edited: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:29:47

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Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:23:07
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Loaded question alert!

This is System Wars material surely poopie face? Nyaa

I hear the same objections to Natal that I heard with Wii when the remote was first announced. There is a difference though, the wii remote always had buttons and analogue sticks and even classic controllers too.

Natal doesn't even have a single button or stick. I'm wondering how you play a FPS? Shout shoot to shoot? Move your head left and right to turn? Run on the spot to move forward?

I think it can be absolutely fantastic with some games, imagine Boom Blox with Natal? Using both hands to manipulate things? Even Elebits would be cool but I dont know how they intend on moving you forward through a level.

I think that a lot of games will have a Natal mode where you basically still use the 360 controller and natal becomes an extra.

I guess we are all waiting for the huge reveal. In many ways this all mimicks what happened with wii. Excitement turning to skepticism, waiting around for proof or whatever.

As with Wii there will be great uses of Natal and fairly pointless ones too. I dont really see the need for Natal to recognise my facial expressions whilst playing an rpg. What if I'm constipated or tired. I dont want a bad gimmick like characters continually saying to me "You look tired", "hey buddy you look like you could take a load off"

And I'll be thinking... you look like you could use my boot in your ass...

What will really annoy me is if they try to do Natal Sports and copy the lifestyle wii ads and go all family friendly on us.

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Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:28:53
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gamingeek said:

...

What will really annoy me is if they try to do Natal Sports and copy the lifestyle wii ads and go all family friendly on us.

 Oh Jesus. Kill me now, I did not even think of that.

Yeah, I guess we are in the "prove it" mode right now, just as we were with the Wii.  But when I saw the Red Steel demos, I was like, "Awesome" but when I see these tools changing a tire ... well it doesn't look promising.


Ravenprose said:
... I never liked EyeToy, and Natal seems like the same thing only worse.

I am interested in Sony's Wand, though. It at least looks like it could be fun to use.

 I liked the mini-games in EyeToy Play, but in the full games it didn't work.  I am also getting Sony's wand -- I see it as an analog to the Nintendo Wii remote.

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Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:31:26
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No controller equal large problems. If they give you an anologue stick I think it can definitely work, but at this stage it looks like an eyetoy.

I liked the eyetoy, though, but it wasn't good for many things beyond mini games.

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Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:36:23
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Foolz said:
No controller equal large problems. If they give you an anologue stick I think it can definitely work, but at this stage it looks like an eyetoy.

I liked the eyetoy, though, but it wasn't good for many things beyond mini games.

But even with an analogue stick, how do you shoot? By pointing and yelling bang? 

aspro said:

gamingeek said:

...

What will really annoy me is if they try to do Natal Sports and copy the lifestyle wii ads and go all family friendly on us.

 Oh Jesus. Kill me now, I did not even think of that.

Yeah, I guess we are in the "prove it" mode right now, just as we were with the Wii.  But when I saw the Red Steel demos, I was like, "Awesome" but when I see these tools changing a tire ... well it doesn't look promising.

Well at least with Natal hiding beyond your couch would actually work!

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Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:46:21
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aspro said:

gamingeek said:

...

What will really annoy me is if they try to do Natal Sports and copy the lifestyle wii ads and go all family friendly on us.

Oh Jesus. Kill me now, I did not even think of that.

Yeah, I guess we are in the "prove it" mode right now, just as we were with the Wii.  But when I saw the Red Steel demos, I was like, "Awesome" but when I see these tools changing a tire ... well it doesn't look promising.


Ravenprose said:
... I never liked EyeToy, and Natal seems like the same thing only worse.

I am interested in Sony's Wand, though. It at least looks like it could be fun to use.

I liked the mini-games in EyeToy Play, but in the full games it didn't work.  I am also getting Sony's wand -- I see it as an analog to the Nintendo Wii remote.

Isn't that what motionplus is for?

Remember also that the Sony wand will be sold by itself for the lowest price entry point possible. It's not a two part controller so far, they even expect you to hold a dual shock in the left hand and the wand in the right.

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Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:48:33
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^That has to change.  No one really thinks that they are going to have you do that (hold half a controller while using the wand)?  No way.

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Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:00:31

aspro said:
^That has to change.  No one really thinks that they are going to have you do that (hold half a controller while using the wand)?  No way.

Yeah but to have two fully motion sensing parts plus the camera, the cost has to be as low as possible they said.

It would be like having two wii remotes + two motionplus' plugged into each one, in each hand.

It's prohibitive. Which is why Natal is cool in that for multiplayer you dont need any add ons, Natal can track 4 people at once.

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Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:07:17

Iga_Bobovic said:

Foolz said:
No controller equal large problems. If they give you an anologue stick I think it can definitely work, but at this stage it looks like an eyetoy.

I liked the eyetoy, though, but it wasn't good for many things beyond mini games.

But even with an analogue stick, how do you shoot? By pointing and yelling bang?

aspro said:

gamingeek said:

...

What will really annoy me is if they try to do Natal Sports and copy the lifestyle wii ads and go all family friendly on us.

Oh Jesus. Kill me now, I did not even think of that.

Yeah, I guess we are in the "prove it" mode right now, just as we were with the Wii.  But when I saw the Red Steel demos, I was like, "Awesome" but when I see these tools changing a tire ... well it doesn't look promising.

Well at least with Natal hiding beyond your couch would actually work!

You can stick a trigger onto the analogue stick I suppose! It'd be less awkward than blinking!

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Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:12:52

gamingeek said:

aspro said:
^That has to change.  No one really thinks that they are going to have you do that (hold half a controller while using the wand)?  No way.

Yeah but to have two fully motion sensing parts plus the camera, the cost has to be as low as possible they said.

It would be like having two wii remotes + two motionplus' plugged into each one, in each hand.

It's prohibitive. Which is why Natal is cool in that for multiplayer you dont need any add ons, Natal can track 4 people at once.

It's too early to say Sony's Wands will be expensive. In its current form, it's basically just an LED flashlight with a couple buttons, and Bluetooth. They can't be very expensive to make. I bet Sony could sell them for $10 each, and still make a profit.

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Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:15:06

Ravenprose said:

gamingeek said:

aspro said:
^That has to change.  No one really thinks that they are going to have you do that (hold half a controller while using the wand)?  No way.

Yeah but to have two fully motion sensing parts plus the camera, the cost has to be as low as possible they said.

It would be like having two wii remotes + two motionplus' plugged into each one, in each hand.

It's prohibitive. Which is why Natal is cool in that for multiplayer you dont need any add ons, Natal can track 4 people at once.

It's too early to say Sony's Wands will be expensive. In its current form, it's basically just an LED flashlight with a couple buttons, and Bluetooth. They can't be very expensive to make. I bet Sony could sell them for $10 each, and still make a profit.

It also has gyroscopes and accelerometers. Plus you need an eye toy camera for it to work. 

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Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:20:26

Iga_Bobovic said:

It also has gyroscopes and accelerometers. Plus you need an eye toy camera for it to work.

Wat? Why would it need gyroscopes and accelerometers and a camera? I thought the camera was supposed to eliminate the need for those. I guess I need to read more about it then.

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Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:21:01

Ravenprose said:

gamingeek said:

It's too early to say Sony's Wands will be expensive. In its current form, it's basically just an LED flashlight with a couple buttons, and Bluetooth. They can't be very expensive to make. I bet Sony could sell them for $10 each, and still make a profit.

It will be about the price of a game, that's what's been indicated by 3rd parties. But it's not too early to say it would be too expensive for Sony's two part controllers as shown at E3. Sony have already said that all wand games will be made to use only 1 controller to get the cost barrier to entry as low as possible. They expect you to hold a dual shock in the other hand.

And like Iga says, it's not just a bulb on the end of a shell.

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Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:24:31
Even if we are required to hold a Dual Shock in one hand (which I seriously doubt), it would still be far better than Natal.

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Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:29:57

Oh hells no. So I went to find the article on gamesindustry where Sony said their games would only support 1 wand.

Godamn Gamesindustry.biz, you have to register to read old articles as well as new now.

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Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:30:34

Ravenprose said:

Iga_Bobovic said:

It also has gyroscopes and accelerometers. Plus you need an eye toy camera for it to work.

Wat? Why would it need gyroscopes and accelerometers and a camera? I thought the camera was supposed to eliminate the need for those. I guess I need to read more about it then.

The camera cannot tell what the orientation of the bulb is. Think about it, the camera only sees the bulb. If I change the angle a bit, the camera will only be able to see the bulb change direction slightly. So how does it know if I made an angle change or if I mode the to side slightly? It can only know that if it has information regarding the angle of the bulb, so gyro's are used for that. Gyro's measure the angular velocity. Accelerometers and gyro's together can be used to track the bulb if it is obscured from view.

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Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:32:39

Iga_Bobovic said:

Ravenprose said:

Iga_Bobovic said:

It also has gyroscopes and accelerometers. Plus you need an eye toy camera for it to work.

Wat? Why would it need gyroscopes and accelerometers and a camera? I thought the camera was supposed to eliminate the need for those. I guess I need to read more about it then.

The camera cannot tell what the orientation of the bulb is. Think about it, the camera only sees the bulb. If I change the angle a bit, the camera will only be able to see the bulb change direction slightly. So how does it know if I made an angle change or if I mode the to side slightly? It can only know that if it has information regarding the angle of the bulb, so gyro's are used for that. Gyro's measure the angular velocity. Accelerometers and gyro's together can be used to track the bulb if it is obscured from view.

This is why the bulb shouldn't be a globe. If it was an angles shape the camera could detect angle changes by the edges.

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Fri, 22 Jan 2010 13:43:52
It will depend on how well they integrate it into games interfaces, and of course if software is being properly designed with Natal in mind. I'm not jumping in until I see proper footage.

It's a very difficult situation, and honestly I don't have a clue how Microsoft and dev teams are going to figure their shit out. Integrating Natal's interface to a regular controller can make things too complicated for the audience MS is aiming to grab, which is the casual market.

Having Natal work on its own without traditional controls will shun away the hardcore userbase, the ones that actually buy games on a constant basis, because there is no way motion controls the way Natal offers them can replace traditional ones as of now. Too imprecise.

So it's going to take nothing short of a miracle for MS to make it work for both markets.
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