I think the best word to describe Epic Mickey as would be "inconsistant." There are some segments of this game that totally live up to the Epic name. Skull Island was an excellent level from start to finish, as was the Captain Hook battle. There are drastically different ways to beat Hook, so that's a pretty awesome bonus as well. But there are other levels that just seem to drag and I can't wait for them to end, like the one immediately before these - the Jungle level. That level just didn't work in my eyes. There was just too much going on and too little direction to really figure out the best way to do it.
Oh well, plodding on to what should be one of the final levels over in the Bog Easy.
If you're going to make it almost mandatory for a player to control the camera, the camera --MUST-- be assigned to an analog controller. Digital control of a camera went --OUT-- with the 64-bit era. UGH!
Being digital is not the issue, it's just not as fast and consistent as it should be, and occasionally borks (but the game is slower paced so it's a mere annoyance, not a real issue). Monster Hunter 3's camera control is fine with any device, digital or analog. If it was a shooting game maybe it would be better to have analog control to get speed or finer control when needed (although IR pointing would a better method then) but when you just need to look around as in Epic Mickey it's just as efficient with a d-pad. The issues it currently has would be there with an analog stick as well, they'd probably make the current speed the max speed and simply make it able to move slower when the stick isn't pushed fully. The game uses the pointer mechanics anyway so it wouldn't be possible to have it dual analog style on any system as no motion contoller includes an analog stick. It's just dumb that they didn't make the pointer control the camera, like in Silent Hill or the various T/FPS games.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The optimist proclaims we live in the best of all possible worlds while the pessimist fears this is true. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
I don't mind the speed when you change the camera. Like Agnates said this isn't so fast paced that you've got a frantic need to quickly change the camera position. I don't think I've ever had to do it for combat in fact. Most of the time it's needed for the platforming sections or figuring out a puzzle or trying to find where something is hidden. My main gripe with the game continues to be limited control of the camera. Throughout the game there are numerous instances where if you're at the edge of a level (at the wall or by the ceiling) where you cannot move the camera and are unable to see what comes next. A think a simple zoom-out feature would have been enough to fix that problem, but unfortunately it is not offered.
robio said:I don't mind the speed when you change the camera. Like Agnates said this isn't so fast paced that you've got a frantic need to quickly change the camera position. I don't think I've ever had to do it for combat in fact. Most of the time it's needed for the platforming sections or figuring out a puzzle or trying to find where something is hidden. My main gripe with the game continues to be limited control of the camera. Throughout the game there are numerous instances where if you're at the edge of a level (at the wall or by the ceiling) where you cannot move the camera and are unable to see what comes next. A think a simple zoom-out feature would have been enough to fix that problem, but unfortunately it is not offered.
It's not the speed I have an issue with. It's the uncomfortable d-pad. It's the limited movement range. It's the fact that most levels seem to have paintable objects juuust outside of the camera "limit."
I tried to let the cinematic camera do its thing but that lasted about 11 seconds.
I love the game for its nostalgic value and story.
I hate it for its gameplay.
Somethings not right here.
phantom_leo said:If you're going to make it almost mandatory for a player to control the camera, the camera --MUST-- be assigned to an analog controller. Digital control of a camera went --OUT-- with the 64-bit era. UGH!
I disagree with this, I remember playing N64 games with C-buttons and using the d-pad is superior to that. Even if the game did have dual analog support people would still complain about the camera because it's a mostly a manual camera like Mario Sunshines was. This game has Zelda N64 one button centering, lock on and then on top of that you have first person camera and d-pad manual camera.
As Agnates said upstairs, the d-pad camera isn't tuned to be fast enough and having the brush work in relation to mickey's in game position and relative to the angle of your target is perhaps too realistic for some people to deal with. They want to shoot paint where the reticule is regardless of Mickey's position in the game world. Also like Agnates said, you are rarely if ever under any sort of pressure as to how and when you do your jumping, there is no grim reaper with a stopwatch, hanging over your shoulder, you have all the time in the world and a double jump too.
I mostly just use the C-button centering and then down on the d-pad if I need to see the platforms beneath me.
Foolz said:So you can't go back to previous areas?
Lame.
You can go back to some of them but the game dictates when and what you can do in them. It often feels arbituary, as some areas can be re-visted yet others not. Also like I said there is a branching level system where you go from the hub world to a location which leads to another location. So point B can still be open but point C will be locked.
I have started my second playthrough and have managed with ease to get back to Mean Street very quickly. Went up Mickey Junk mountain again, really liked it. Doing some things differentely here in regards to quests and using thinner a lot instead of paint. There are some differences but its not game changing. It's just sort of a nice difference on your replay.
I played A LOT more today. It was bugging me that I missed a Chest in Slalom (after fixing the Tea Cups). I FAILED a mission by giving Lil Pete's Captain's Log to a Gremlin INSTEAD OF him --AND-- the mission with the phone in OsTown got completely botched because I was hitting the "A" button to advance the conversation with one of the Gremlin's, hit it one time too many and answered "Yes" to him asking if he could go in my house and get his wrench from my phone, effectively KILLING the phone and Failing that mission in the process! I sometimes HATE the fact the game Auto-Saves so often; if you make a mistake or misunderstand a mission briefing, you're kinda screwed.
(Who knew I was supposed to cooperate with a Pete?! That's the most contradictory Mickey thing EVER!)
I re-started the game and got back to Mickey Junk Mountain which is where I left off when I decided to delete my original save. I was pretty astounded at ALL the extra stuff I found --AND-- the differences my actions made. Peg-Leg Pete in OsTown Thanked me for helping Lil Pete in Gremlin Town for example --BUT-- even better than that, I skipped the whole Colliseum Battle altogether the second time around! I was able to get --MANY-- more pins and Movie Reels. I got quite a few more Power Sparks than last time by hearing the conversations enough now to understand what they were asking for. I found a "Secret" Portal to the European Boat Ride in Gremlin Town, too!
One of the MOST interesting things though: The whole Phone Switch Box Quest, to find all four boxes, I had to use A LOT of Thinner. This is something I was shying away from the first time around as it seems to be the "Bad" thing to do. Wow! What a difference the Thinner makes! There were caves and hidden stuff ALL over the place, even in the GROUND! Even more intriguing: Epic Mickey could be the anti-de-Blob! As you Thin the paint in an area, the environment darkens, people start to yell at you, the music gets all somber... It just sets an entirely different mood! I'm going to have to play the game AGAIN and do an entire "Thinner" route to see the differences in ALL the areas!
I am getting the feeling that ALL the game's reviewers played through the game ONCE and ONLY ONCE in a rushed session. The game's underlying brilliance can only be understood when you play it a FEW times. How many reviewers can do that --THIS-- time of year?
I posted all this to say the following: Playing the game again, approaching it --NOT-- as a Platformer with Adventure Elements --BUT-- as an Adventure game with some Platforming Elements has entirely changed my attitude towards the Camera issues I was having even up to yesterday! Trying to play it as an action game will only serve to frustrate you. I've learned that now and have a much more initimate understanding of Spector's whole "vision" to boot!
I have been almost exclusively playing with Thinner. I've gone out of my way to play as "asshole Mickey." It goes against my every instinct as a gamer who wants to do the right thing, but it's still kind of fun. I can kind of see all the reprocussions my acts have had. Lots of quests are harder than they'd have to be and aI suspect I'm not getting nearly as many rewards as I could be. Still, dropping a safe on an old man's head is satisfying in a sadistic way.
2nd playthrough on Epic Mickey, found much more stuff, breaking down the levels more. Also encountering more camera trouble than I did on my first run through. I guess because I'm trying to cram my ass into every damned corner of the game looking for stuff.
Managed to get only 2 out of 4 of Goofy's parts in Tomorrow Land, I officially dislike this level. Got 3 out of 4 of Daisy's robot parts in Ventureland and facing off with Hook now. I can't work out how to kill him, I saved Tinkerbell before.
I think by the end of my 2nd playthrough I might bump my provisional score down from a 9.0 to somewhere between 8.5 - 8.7
Not being able to revisit levels and the auto saving hurts things a bit. Still very enjoyable though and I had forgotten some of the nice set pieces here.
phantom_leo said:mission with the phone in OsTown got completely botched because I was hitting the "A" button to advance the conversation with one of the Gremlin's, hit it one time too many and answered "Yes" to him asking if he could go in my house and get his wrench from my phone, effectively KILLING the phone and Failing that mission in the process! I sometimes HATE the fact the game Auto-Saves so often; if you make a mistake or misunderstand a mission briefing, you're kinda screwed.
Same here, exactly the same. I pressed A to skip text and ruined it. Did it second time through, very nice. Also playing through 2nd time using thinner. There is so much hidden stuff. Anyhow I found that you can thin everything and then just patch it back up, there is no shortage of paint or thinner about and even if you are empty the game regenerates a little for you each time. My advice is to go thinner mad then fill in.
I've also been pumping thinner into the machines I think this will affect the end sequence more than anything else.
Also, good advice is do not leave Tomorrow Land, Tortuga - pirate levels or The ghost mansion until you find the robot pieces or they will seal the levels off behind you.
Robot parts from the shop are 1000 e tickets so you have to IMO find at least 3 out of 4 of each animatronic character and then it gives you wiggle room to buy the missing piece.
Also, fucking dog tags in Tomorrow land, still cannot get them!
Spoilers and what not, but this will save you hours of pointless searching:
Just a hint here, in the Pirate levels you can only find 3 out of 4 robot pieces, the other is given to you by the pirate you are supposed to rescue when you get back - I think Horace the detective gives you the quest.
http://clutch.mtv.com/2010/12/06/epic-mickeys-warren-spector-responds-to-the-internets/
Warren Spector said:"There are a couple of responses to the camera question. First, there has never been a game that I couldn't break if you give it to me for 30 seconds. I mean, I will break a camera in any game ever made. And if I learned one thing on this project, it's an immense amount of respect for people who have been making third person action and platforming games. Third person camera is way harder than I even imagined it could be. It is the hardest problem in video game development. Everybody gets it wrong. It's just a question of how close to right do you get it.
"Second, cameras are different in different game styles. So in a platform game you want the camera up higher in a steeper angle because the important thing for the platform player is to be able to see the next jump clearly. In an action adventure game, like 'Zelda' for example, you want the camera down lower so you have more tactical awareness because there are enemies out there. There are traversal problems that require a tactical awareness that a high camera does not provide. So platformers and action adventure games have different camera requirements.
"But here's the deal, what I try to be completely clear about is that this is not a platforming game. This is a game that takes platforming elements and adventure game elements and role-playing elements and merges them. So we couldn't tune the camera perfectly for platforming or for action adventure. It’s a very different camera style. What we did is try to find the best compromise in the moment and give the player as much manual control as we could. So we took the hardest problem in third-person gaming and made it harder by trying to accommodate two different playing styles.
"The bottom line is that we did the best we could given that we were not trying to make a platform game or an action adventure game, but a game where you get to decide what the game felt like moment to moment.
"And I will go to my grave, imperfect as it is, proud as hell of my camera team. If reviewers want to give us a hard time about it because they're misunderstanding the game we made, it's not for me to tell them that they're wrong, absolutely not. But I wish people would get it out of their head that we made a 'Mario' competitor, because we didn't."
Q: This game appears to be getting the biggest response you've ever had for a game you worked on. You find that to be true?
A: I've never worked on a game that's polarized people like this. Literally, we've got a half dozen perfect scores and I've also gotten the lowest scores I've ever gotten on any game I've ever worked on. In a weird sort of way, I think that's kind of cool. The fact that you're making something that people feel that strongly about either way is way better to me in a weird sort of way, of course you want everybody to think you made the best game ever, but if we were trending at something like an 8 out of 10? I'd probably have to kill myself. It's kind of cool to polarize people in that way and have people feeling really passionate about it and talking a lot about it, I'm kind of jazzed about that.
More on page 2 of that interview at the link
So is this game really a disappointment or is GAF just overreacting again (like always)?
One of the site's forefathers.
Play fighting games!
Not a disappointment in the least. It is classic Warren Spector through and through.
GAF is a bunch of pathetic, nerdy whiners.
Punk Rebel Ecks said:So is this game really a disappointment or is GAF just overreacting again (like always)?
From my perspective I would say so, but there are many reviewers who feel the same as the GAF naysayers.
There are many users and reviewers who feel differently though. It gets hard to say you like the game on GAF without fear of being shouted down or laughed at, which is probably why you see the good impressions dry up after a certain point.
I think it's solid, if you like the style of Banjo platformers and are okay with the Banjo like fetch quest approach. If you like Disney it helps too. Best thing is to watch the gametrailers review, it's a happy medium between the highs and lows.
50 Disney references in Epic Mickey
I just got through this. Very cool.
gamingeek said:From my perspective I would say so, but there are many reviewers who feel the same as the GAF naysayers.
There are many users and reviewers who feel differently though. It gets hard to say you like the game on GAF without fear of being shouted down or laughed at, which is probably why you see the good impressions dry up after a certain point.
I think it's solid, if you like the style of Banjo platformers and are okay with the Banjo like fetch quest approach. If you like Disney it helps too. Best thing is to watch the gametrailers review, it's a happy medium between the highs and lows.
Being reluctant to praise a game on GAF because you'll get flamed? UNHEARD OF!
Also watched the Gametrailers review. They really do always get it right.
One of the site's forefathers.
Play fighting games!
Punk Rebel Ecks said:Being reluctant to praise a game on GAF because you'll get flamed? UNHEARD OF!
Also watched the Gametrailers review. They really do always get it right.
I like that they are happy to be in the middle, everyone else always wants to either love or hate a game, where are the guys saying - yeah it's pretty decent. Gametrailers are those guys - with exceptions.
I think Epic Mickey will ultimately be one of those games that is signficantly more appreciated as time goes on, like Majora's Mask. It wasn't the game that people expected and they didn't quite get it. Because of that it got trashed by a lot reviewers. After a few years pass, people give it a second look and start to realize that it actually is a great game. The game has its' faults, particuarly in the first half of the game, but there's so many good things about it that I think people will see once they can look at the game with an open mind.
gamingeek said:I like that they are happy to be in the middle, everyone else always wants to either love or hate a game, where are the guys saying - yeah it's pretty decent. Gametrailers are those guys - with exceptions.
Unforunately that's the hive mind.
That being said, I took Gametrailers review as: "It's a really great experience, it's just that the gameplay just doesn't hold up and the camera is stuck from 2002."
One of the site's forefathers.
Play fighting games!
So you can't go back to previous areas?
Lame.