Wow, and from destructoid of all sites. Gamasutra should be should hang their heads in shame, they really dropped the ball with their Wii articles.
GG post it in the GGD, it should be a riot.
Iga_Bobovic said:Wow, and from destructoid of all sites. Gamasutra should be should hang their heads in shame, they really dropped the ball with their Wii articles.
GG post it in the GGD, it should be a riot.
You know I don't post there.
Really I'm pretty stupified how people are concentrating on sales of Extraction and yet ignoring the 620'000 copies of Modern Warfare REFLEX or the 1 million sales of Monster Hunter 3. Even using Conduit as some sort of litmus test.
There is a definite agenda being pushed here. It suits publishers to blame the environment as Pachter said today, instead of them recognising that they didn't have product the consumer wanted.
So true:
8. Don’t expect your niche game to make a lot of money
it’s common sense that if you make something that’s the videogame equivalent of a cult movie like Grindhouse or The Spirit, it’s going to end up being a cult game like God Hand or Psychonauts, and with a small audience to match.
9) Nobody cares about spin-offs. Nobody
This is the main reason why I’m always so puzzled when people are so sure that there is “no market for M-rated games on the Wii.” Sure, they could be right, but this theory has never really been tested. You can’t compare the sales of Resident Evil 5 with those of Resident Evil: The Darkside Chronicles. One plays like a "real" Resident Evil game, the other doesn't. Gamers -- even Wii gamers -- can tell the difference. They could tell the difference with Resident Evil: Survivor on the PS1, and Resident Evil: Dead Aim on the PS2 (which both sold less than half a million copies) and they can tell now.
There was a time when Wii owners might have been desperate enough to buy your spin-offs, but that time is over.
That's probably the best article about Wii games I've read in ages. Not everything is spot on, but most of them are pretty good and even things like #3 Don't Forget the Action have a lot of truth in them even if it's not something that should be followed every time.
The only thing I'd add to it would be take advantage of the Nostalgia Factor. If you were a developer or publisher who had a game that sold half a million copies or more on the NES or SNES and then dropped off the face of the earth bringing the franchise back to the Wii isn't a bad idea.
That being said it's not a 100% guarantee that it'll work. The game needs to be an enhancement of what made the game good back in the day, and not a departure. Use Punch-Out or NSMB Wii as an example to follow, and not NiGHTS: Journey Into Dreams or Rygar: The Crapastic Adventure of a Guy With Spiky Hair. Or you can play it really safe and just the Mega-Man/ Konami Rebirth route and do a new version of an old build.
Zack and Wiki is this game that annoys me. I love it and I think every Wii owner should own and experience it.
But its so uncommercial it's not funny. It's cel-shaded which is a kick to success initially, then it had this "shirtless boy pirate with a golden monkey" read that back to yourself and imagine how the 360 audience would take that. And then they changed the name from Treasure Island Z to... Zack and Wiki? They might as well have called it Zeebo and Blotwat, then its subtitle is The Quest for Barbaros' Treasure and most people can't pronounce, let alone spell Babaros'.
Even ignoring all of that, it's a graphic adventure minus the story, it's a concept you cannot define in a 15 second commercial. It's in a genre that has been in decline for years.
These days it's the kind of thing you expect on XBLA or PSN or WiiWare.
Sure some games break out and become a success, Katamari for instance but its the exception and not the norm so you have to taper your expectations or be more forceful with your marketing and price points.
Being original and good isn't enough. You have to be commercial and mainstream in addition to that.
Some developers, like Suda51, are totally happy with a half a million in sales for games like his surrealistic, ultra-violent action comedies. Why Sega doesn’t share that sentiment with MadWorld, which sold better than similar games by the same studio released on the PS2, is sort of puzzling.
Yeah, they are talking about Godhand.
Okami sold better on the Wii than on the PS2. That’s despite the fact that at the time that Okami was released on the console, the PS2 had a larger install base than the Wii, and that by the time the game was released on the Wii, the PS2 version had been available in stores for years at only $20.
And yet Capcom are still disappointed with sales? Okay they made their money back but the media act like the game not blowing away the competition and putting up Zelda like numbers is a failure. The PS2 had a 90 million plus userbase when Okami hit. Wii had a fraction of that and it still outsold the PS2 version. Did anyone blame the PS2 for poor Okami sales?
Madworld is almost like a publisher and the media acting like a hyped up fan of comic books, gore, cel shading and gaming thinking "YEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSS this game is awesome it's going to sell bucketloads!!"
No, it's not.
Games like Madworld and Overkill aren't just "mature" M-Rated games. They don't have Hollywood violence like Gears of War. These are two of the most foul mouthed, blood soaked games ever made. Sorry to spoil the ending of Overkill but a character walks into a giant womans vagina.
Madworld's commentators which complements the explicit action on screen talks about fucking, about sex, about violence, continually throughout its 8 hr playtime. The game has you repeatedly stabbing someone to death on spiked walls and sticking poles through people's eye sockets.
It's no suprise when content like this is niche, real adult content that a parent probably would object to their kiddies playing (unlike GTA and Call of Duty).
You know I didn't think Zack & Wiki was that good. I think I've made this point before that it was really wasn't a new or impressive game. There were plenty of old adventure games that played in single screen levels like this game back in the 90's. It was very reminiscent of a series of games Sierra Online made called Goblins. So I never found it all that original.
But I will agree with you that the game was the posterchild of "how to make a game that will make mainstream gamers run and hide." I couldn't tell you who that game was supposed to appeal to even after playing it. Kids? Not really it's a little too hard? Teenagers? Hell no, not with a main character who is little boy with a cute pet monkey. Girls? Maybe the ones who really like Pirates of the Carribean but think Orlando Bloom is too old to be cute. Adults? Maybe the ones who don't mind being arrested for pedophilia.
2) Don’t chase two opposing demographics at once
You know this applies to on rails games too. In fact this is pretty much a big part of why you get on-rails version of hardcore franchises. Publishers think they can get the hardcore audience for the franchise and make it easy enough for the casual wii owners "who like easiness" (Kawata -2006)
Also here is a tip, if you want to sell your game, black and white cel shading is not the way to go.
You know what, if Madworld was in colour with visuals like this it would have sold a lot more:
And conversely if Bayonetta looked like Madworld it would be selling a pittance right now. Not that I want either game to change visuals but why the media and publishers at large can't see this is beyond me. Also I was just reading the comments on 1up on the Madworld 2 story, jesus they are just as bad, maybe worse.
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Tell me to get back to rewriting this site so it's not horrible on mobile
gamingeek said:Zack and Wiki is this game that annoys me. I love it and I think every Wii owner should own and experience it.
But its so uncommercial it's not funny. It's cel-shaded which is a kick to success initially, then it had this "shirtless boy pirate with a golden monkey" read that back to yourself and imagine how the 360 audience would take that. And then they changed the name from Treasure Island Z to... Zack and Wiki? They might as well have called it Zeebo and Blotwat, then its subtitle is The Quest for Barbaros' Treasure and most people can't pronounce, let alone spell Babaros'.
Sure some games break out and become a success, Katamari for instance but its the exception and not the norm so you have to taper your expectations or be more forceful with your marketing and price points.
Being original and good isn't enough. You have to be commercial and mainstream in addition to that.
Yeah, exactly. And there's that Capcom employee who thought Z&W should have done better. Please.
There's been some questionable game choices over the years in my opinion. Niche stuff with no wide appeal but yet they seem to think it might catch on? What kind of focus groups do they have? How could Deadly creatures score high?
I would also like publishers to realize that on average, a $50 light gun game is not going to sell gangbusters either.
I think Katamari should have been ported/remade for some quick cash. More arcade-ish games should have been pumped out like crazy taxi, etc I was sort of interested in that Jambo safari game until they turned it into a healing animals kids game.
And some developers/publishers talk about throwing everything against the wall to see what will stick - but they actually aren't doing that. If they did people wouldn't be clamoring for certain series or types of games.
grumble
angrymonkey said:There's been some questionable game choices over the years in my opinion. Niche stuff with no wide appeal but yet they seem to think it might catch on? What kind of focus groups do they have? How could Deadly creatures score high?
Holy cow yes. I would love to have seen the meeting where Deadly Creatures was given the go ahead. What was the plan here?
Dev: Hey we got this game with this great idea where bugs viciously fight other bugs.
Publisher: But, this is not commercial
Dev: But it's on Wii!
Publisher: Yes this is going to succeed.
angrymonkey said:And some developers/publishers talk about throwing everything against the wall to see what will stick - but they actually aren't doing that. If they did people wouldn't be clamoring for certain series or types of games.
grumble
They don't seem to get that a high quality blockbuster type game with great marketing with sell. It's always a spin off or niche game and they never market them like they do for HD games. Then they complain.
angrymonkey said:
gamingeek said:Zack and Wiki is this game that annoys me. I love it and I think every Wii owner should own and experience it.
But its so uncommercial it's not funny. It's cel-shaded which is a kick to success initially, then it had this "shirtless boy pirate with a golden monkey" read that back to yourself and imagine how the 360 audience would take that. And then they changed the name from Treasure Island Z to... Zack and Wiki? They might as well have called it Zeebo and Blotwat, then its subtitle is The Quest for Barbaros' Treasure and most people can't pronounce, let alone spell Babaros'.
Sure some games break out and become a success, Katamari for instance but its the exception and not the norm so you have to taper your expectations or be more forceful with your marketing and price points.
Being original and good isn't enough. You have to be commercial and mainstream in addition to that.
Yeah, exactly. And there's that Capcom employee who thought Z&W should have done better. Please.
There's been some questionable game choices over the years in my opinion. Niche stuff with no wide appeal but yet they seem to think it might catch on? What kind of focus groups do they have? How could Deadly creatures score high?
I would also like publishers to realize that on average, a $50 light gun game is not going to sell gangbusters either.
I think Katamari should have been ported/remade for some quick cash. More arcade-ish games should have been pumped out like crazy taxi, etc I was sort of interested in that Jambo safari game until they turned it into a healing animals kids game.
And some developers/publishers talk about throwing everything against the wall to see what will stick - but they actually aren't doing that. If they did people wouldn't be clamoring for certain series or types of games.
grumble
Holy crap angry monkey = GG.
Iga_Bobovic said:Holy crap angry monkey = GG.
What's even freakier is that I had something like this:
DevDev: Hey we got this game with this great idea where bugs viciously fight other bugs.
Publisher: But, this is not commercial
Dev: But it's on Wii!
Publisher: Yes this is going to succeed.
bouncing in my head but didn't bother putting it in my post. I wish I had.
My brother's neighbors kid seemed to like this game. But I still think it's in that narrow range of kids that like spiders and stuff - which is I guess what they were aiming for. they shouldn't have thought that was a huge market though.
And he also loves fps games but yet is squeamish about zombie games.
angrymonkey said:gamingeek said: Holy crap angry monkey = GG.
Iga_Bobovic said:Holy crap angry monkey = GG.
What's even freakier is that I had something like this:
DevDev: Hey we got this game with this great idea where bugs viciously fight other bugs.
Publisher: But, this is not commercial
Dev: But it's on Wii!
Publisher: Yes this is going to succeed.
bouncing in my head but didn't bother putting it in my post. I wish I had.
My brother's neighbors kid seemed to like this game. But I still think it's in that narrow range of kids that like spiders and stuff - which is I guess what they were aiming for. they shouldn't have thought that was a huge market though.
And he also loves fps games but yet is squeamish about zombie games.
As ridiculous as it sounds they would have been better off sticking a pair of eyes on every bug (like Rare would) and making a Bugs Life sort of game with more character. This dark, vicious, inside look at what its like to be a bug... I mean c'mon. How is this commercial?
I actually didn't rate the game that much either.
gamingeek said:angrymonkey said:gamingeek said: Holy crap angry monkey = GG.
Iga_Bobovic said:Holy crap angry monkey = GG.
What's even freakier is that I had something like this:
DevDev: Hey we got this game with this great idea where bugs viciously fight other bugs.
Publisher: But, this is not commercial
Dev: But it's on Wii!
Publisher: Yes this is going to succeed.
bouncing in my head but didn't bother putting it in my post. I wish I had.
My brother's neighbors kid seemed to like this game. But I still think it's in that narrow range of kids that like spiders and stuff - which is I guess what they were aiming for. they shouldn't have thought that was a huge market though.
And he also loves fps games but yet is squeamish about zombie games.
As ridiculous as it sounds they would have been better off sticking a pair of eyes on every bug (like Rare would) and making a Bugs Life sort of game with more character. This dark, vicious, inside look at what its like to be a bug... I mean c'mon. How is this commercial?
I actually didn't rate the game that much either.
angrymonkey said:As an aside - you getting the endless ocean sequel day 1? I think I am, especially if its the same price range.
I love Endless Ocean, I locked in 65 hours on it and day 1 would be a cert. However the first game got an £18 release in the UK. The second game seems to be full price, even online it's about £35. It's not a question of buying it because I would, even if it was £50 but I want to hunt around and wait a bit closer to release to see if anyone will do it cheaper.
I have spotted it for £25 on CDWow.
I've done exactly that, which is why the Wii>>>PS3/360.
This article is full of win
http://www.destructoid.com/10-tips-and-tricks-for-3rd-parties-working-on-wii-games-160019.phtml
Conclusion:
I don’t blame developers for being confused about how to develop for the Wii. The game industry has been focused on visuals pretty much since its inception, and to take that away from developers has been totally disruptive. I do blame them for expecting Wii gamers to eat up their niche titles, new IPs, and spin-offs. The Wii’s library is not so barren that gamers will just buy any game that looks halfway decent. If you make your game right, it will sell more than a million copies on the Wii.