In the last few Game Under podcasts, Foolz and I have gotten into some of the literary aspects of game story.

Which is amazing given that I usually don't listen to the audio in games and skip cutscenes.

Where I ended up on this (not on the show, but in responding to comments) was that story in games really doesn;t matter, but as long as they are going to pretend to do something great with story then developers need to be called out for it.

Example:

I am not a handsome man. If I went on some politics TV show on public TV and people started to call out my appearance on twitter and such, that would be a low blow.

However, if I enter the "America's Next Top Male Model" then I deserve and should expect to be called out for such a ludicrous act (given my appearance).

So as long as games want to pretend story is the draw (as opposed to blasting zombies in the face with a shotgun -- Last of Us I am looking at you), then games need to be criticized until they either get better at it, or give up on it.

I play games for the game part first but I have loved game stories. Even stupid shit like Resident Evil would never be nearly as memorable if it didnt have the story. MGS, hello, a huge part of that is the story of the Snakes.

As for TLOU, it is as good a story as it is a game. I still say it is the best MOVIE I saw last year as well as the best game I played. I wish a movie last year had a story as good as TLOU.

aspro said:

Example:

I am not a handsome man. If I went on some politics TV show on public TV and people started to call out my appearance on twitter and such, that would be a low blow.

However, if I enter the "America's Next Top Male Model" then I deserve and should expect to be called out for such a ludicrous act (given my appearance).

I'm not entirely sure why, but I found that highly amusing.

Dvader said:

I play games for the game part first but I have loved game stories. Even stupid shit like Resident Evil would never be nearly as memorable if it didnt have the story. MGS, hello, a huge part of that is the story of the Snakes.

As for TLOU, it is as good a story as it is a game. I still say it is the best MOVIE I saw last year as well as the best game I played. I wish a movie last year had a story as good as TLOU.

Would you if you were to just sit there and watch 3 hours of the cutscenes, though? And then compare it directly to something like The Road? I think TLOU's story loses a huge amount without the gameplay, and that's something that it should be praised for. TLOU is better than The Road, absolutely, but I think The Road is an incomparably superior film; certainly, they're technically stratospheres apart in terms of filmmaking (including everything related to the writing).

The Tekken stories are awesome (not sarcasm):

Foolz said:

This is hard to answer, because I don't really care about anything in "games". I care about things in individual games. I cared about the story in Deadly Preminition, but it was highly integrated into how the game functioned as a piece of programmed rules. Yet I care about the story in Metal Gear Solid, and there's really no connection between the programming and the story whatsoever (except for some really great gimmicks). By the same token, did I care about the story in The Last of Us? Only towards the end, and it's shoving it in your face with every sinew of its existence as you're playing (including with its gameplay).

Would you if you were to just sit there and watch 3 hours of the cutscenes, though? And then compare it directly to something like The Road? I think TLOU's story loses a huge amount without the gameplay, and that's something that it should be praised for. TLOU is better than The Road, absolutely, but I think The Road is an incomparably superior film; certainly, they're technically stratospheres apart in terms of filmmaking (including everything related to the writing).

I need an explaination about Deadly Premonition cause I have no clue what you are talking about there.

I have not seen the Road, remember I generally like big summer movies so take that as you will.   If it were just cutscenes sure it probably cant stand to an actual movie, its partly the game side of TLOU that makes you so emotionally invested in the characters. Basically the direction and pacing of the story cutscenes are not as important in games cause the game side (in games that mix the two well) takes over. Especially pacing, there is no need for a three act structure in games, the story basically serves to keep the game segments going rather than to tell a well structured story. Me the player being in danger creates an emotional response that watching the characters on a screen cannot. Now after I accomplish my goal and the cutscene starts it is a continouation of that feeling but now with all the elements of film, I brought that emotional high right into the current scene, the movie side of the game didn't really have to do much to build up the scene. Thats where stories in games have a sort of advantage over film, since you are totally engaged it is far easier to put you in a certain state of mind (or its cheating if you look at it from a different point of view).

That said most games have stupid stories or the game and the story dont mesh well so it never really connects. I think ND is the best in the buisness right now in mixing the story and gameplay into that perfect emotional mix. It also helps for me that they focus on my exact favorite style of movi, the action summer movie spectacle. (TLOU while telling a deep character story still has a summer movie vibe and when it is a film will absolutely hit during the summer).

Dvader said:

I need an explaination about Deadly Premonition cause I have no clue what you are talking about there.

I have not seen the Road, remember I generally like big summer movies so take that as you will.   If it were just cutscenes sure it probably cant stand to an actual movie, its partly the game side of TLOU that makes you so emotionally invested in the characters. Basically the direction and pacing of the story cutscenes are not as important in games cause the game side (in games that mix the two well) takes over. Especially pacing, there is no need for a three act structure in games, the story basically serves to keep the game segments going rather than to tell a well structured story. Me the player being in danger creates an emotional response that watching the characters on a screen cannot. Now after I accomplish my goal and the cutscene starts it is a continouation of that feeling but now with all the elements of film, I brought that emotional high right into the current scene, the movie side of the game didn't really have to do much to build up the scene. Thats where stories in games have a sort of advantage over film, since you are totally engaged it is far easier to put you in a certain state of mind (or its cheating if you look at it from a different point of view).

That said most games have stupid stories or the game and the story dont mesh well so it never really connects. I think ND is the best in the buisness right now in mixing the story and gameplay into that perfect emotional mix. It also helps for me that they focus on my exact favorite style of movi, the action summer movie spectacle. (TLOU while telling a deep character story still has a summer movie vibe and when it is a film will absolutely hit during the summer).

The way the world functioned (the characters living out their lives) was mind blowing. Though it was kinda obvious at the beginning anyway, you could easily predict a lot of the ending by following certain characters around and seeing how they lived. One of the most emotional moments I completely stumbled into, and would have otherwise missed because of the way the AI worked, which made it feel so much more "real". I was literally in the right place at the right time to witness a pivotal moment in the emotional development of two characters. No contrivance, just pure (investigative) luck. That's impossible to achieve in another medium without abstraction or emotional manipulation, and I certainly can't think of another game doing that as successfully.

And there was great continuity between how awkward the game played and how awkward the narrative direction was...which wasn't necessarily deliberate, but I think created a much better effect than something like Spec Ops where the mediocrity might have been deliberate, but there wasn't really continuity between the narrative and most of the gameplay in Spec Ops, and the juxtaposition that resulted wasn't particularly striking. Hell, just simple things like how the side quests work with directly engaging you with a wide range of characters, and how that revealed details about the main plot is still directly related to the gameplay; even if it's more structural than mechanical.

Anyway, great points. It's one of the reasons I can appreciate bullshit that I wouldn't last two minutes with in other mediums, in videogames

Dvader said:

^Ah so it was that aspect. I kind of overlook it cause it was done so much better in Majora's Mask. That and I think DP is garbage (interesting garbage).

Not a chance.

Dvader said:

LOL, right. The entire game was built around the concept of influencing the lives of the characters and you had to use time and items to do so.Finding out what was the persons problem and finding how to solve it was one giant puzzle. Plus you had actual control of time itself meaning it was a full gameplay mechanic. Time in DP just goes away, miss it TOO BAD.

In DP it was nothing but a glorified checkpoint side quest system where you just get to a point at some time and they give you generic side quest #whatever. It really had no true gameplay function outside of handing boring side quests. Yes you can miss some and some did lead to a few interesting story moments but most where "can you drive me here","Can you clean my kitchen", "can you take this here", "can you collect x of this" and so on.

That's exactly why I said it was great. Welcome to reality.

Obviously MM uses these things to make an incomparably better game. A better story influenced by gameplay? Hell no.

P.S. Many of the great story moments you could stumble across in DP had nothing to do with side quests of any sort. That's the great thing about the AI, they weren't just there to service gameplay mechanics or structures etc., they also continued the story with or without you; regardless of any gamey interactions like the side quests.

I think that the most memorable (and enjoyable) use of story in games comes when the player is allowed to make their own stories.

Think of the things that have happened while playing Elder Scrolls, Fallout 3/New Vegas, Deadly Premonition that you remember years after playing (as opposed to convolutions in "great" stories like Yakuza that you forget as soon as you are done with the game).

Running out of petrol in Deadly Premonition and having to walk back to town. Cheesing a boss in Morrowind. Bypassing a third of New Vegas by killing a boss you were not supposed to have been allow to kill.

The open framework of those games enables memorable player-created stories.  And sure, there is never going to be a database of all the potentialities, but that is what makes them memorable and unique.

Dvader said:

I understand the thrill of self discovery, yes that is neat but what you describe is more of a living simulation than anything involving actual gameplay. If DP had a chart or some database letting you know when certain events would happen (it does for side quests but you are speaking about non side quests) do you think it would have made it worse.

Living simulation=gameplay (it might not be good gameplay, but it can't be defined as anything else). And absolutely it would have. It's telling a story, and I generally hate annotations anyway. If you want annotations, then use a walkthrough and ruin the life simulator.

aspro said:

I think that the most memorable (and enjoyable) use of story in games comes when the player is allowed to make their own stories.

Think of the things that have happened while playing Elder Scrolls, Fallout 3/New Vegas, Deadly Premonition that you remember years after playing (as opposed to convolutions in "great" stories like Yakuza that you forget as soon as you are done with the game).

Running out of petrol in Deadly Premonition and having to walk back to town. Cheesing a boss in Morrowind. Bypassing a third of New Vegas by killing a boss you were not supposed to have been allow to kill.

The open framework of those games enables memorable player-created stories.  And sure, there is never going to be a database of all the potentialities, but that is what makes them memorable and unique.

You're not making your own story, you're generating anecdotes.