How easy or not is not the point? You've been saying that's the whole point many posts now, claiming you lose audience or whatever else if you have to jump an extra hoop or two to start the editors/mods rather than simply choose an item from the menu.The games are obviously different, I never said Half-Life or Unreal is a platformer like LBP or an RPG like Oblivion or racing game like Trackmania just because they all allow user generated content (although they have been turned into any genres before). The goals regarding that aspect are the same.

Agnates said:

The goal is the same. Creation of user content, playability of such content, and extention of the game's shelf life due to these factors. It's worked for many games, whether you think they're user friendly enough or not. Half-Life series, Unreal series, Quake series, Doom series, Neverwinter Nights, Bethesda games. It's only you loss if the latter. Many of those Oblivion mods are still simple to install, did you actually try to do it or just saw that the page is a few paragraphs long and decided it's too much hassle and an example of how hard it is? Many come with installers just like the official DLC, for others all you do is put some files in a given folder. It's basically your choice fow simple or complex it's going to be. Obviously if you get 2-3-4 mods that do some of the same things, ie, texture replacements or skill replacements that apply to the whole game rather than some new custom area, there may be conflicts that you need to take in account in the load order. To you it seems complex, to others it's common sense. Here's a near Total Conversion for Oblivion, and all you do is use the installer they provide. Besides, what are you claiming now, that one modable PC game is like every modable PC game? I guess you haven't been reading my posts since one of my main points was that implementation often varies, but the goals remain the same (see the first sentence again). Here's how to play this Source mod. You go to its steam page, and click install. It's the same for others, although not all of them, for many you'll need to simply get an installer file as if you just downloaded a new game (and often that's what you'll have done). As for custom multiplayer levels? You don't even have to do anything, you just click to play your Source game or mod online as usual, and if the host is using a custom level you auto download and install it then proceed to play. The same happens with Trackmania as each track is a few kilobytes despite any potential design complexity. Stop grasping.

As for that community aspect you keep mentioning, many of the companies that offer these games have their own communities, but thankfully it's not a one way deal and people can create their own fan and mod communities, like moddb.com. And they're actual communities like thevgpress, not just a search interface.

A-----Haaaaaaaaaaaa! Proof!

Gamingeek said:

Dvader you should sit behind me and put your arms under my armpits and play for me.


          With the controller, steer clear of my joystick. I'm a'warning you.

http://thevgpress.com/#!//blogs/whats-your-diagnosis-dr-obvious_1584_3.html

Agnates said:

How easy or not is not the point? You've been saying that's the whole point many posts now, claiming you lose audience or whatever else if you have to jump an extra hoop or two to start the editors/mods rather than simply choose an item from the menu.The games are obviously different, I never said Half-Life or Unreal is a platformer like LBP or an RPG like Oblivion or racing game like Trackmania just because they all allow user generated content (although they have been turned into any genres before). The goals regarding that aspect are the same.

As for that community aspect you keep mentioning, many of the companies that offer these games have their own communities, but thankfully it's not a one way deal and people can create their own fan and mod communities, like moddb.com. And they're actual communities like thevgpress, not just a search interface.

The goal is not the same cause the developer is not actively making those mods part of the actual game. They are focused in making whatever game they are making be it an RPG or FPS. The mod stuff is just extra, its not a part of the game, you dont start the game and have access to a world of content cause that is not the focus of those games. It is the focus of LBP.

Saying LBP is like any kind of PC mod is incorrect. They are not the same, yes the fact that you can create your own mods in the PC world and share it with others is the same idea, that is where the similarities end. LBP has it all integrated, the game is built around that. You cannot say the same about other games. That is what makes it different.

Dvader said:

yes the fact that you can create your own mods in the PC world and share it with others is the same idea

Finally. Thank you. Yes, the implementation varies, not just between LBP and PC games but from PC game to PC game as well. No shit, different people have different thoughts. Same difference.

And you're wrong, plenty companies focus on offering good tools as well as a good game, plenty games/series made their fame on that, including Trackmania, Half-Life, Unreal, Neverwinter Nights, Battlefield, etc. It's not just randomly thrown extras, man hours went into the tool and SDK creation just as they did in the creation of the LBP editor, whether it's integrated or not. Many of them. I'm sure even people who aren't into this stuff have heard of UnrealEd, Aurora and TES Construction Set among others, as they're talked about almost as often as the games they come with. Hell, Bethesda games are notorious for being full of issues that fans fix up with the tools provided post release, making the PC version the definitive. If it was so simple to release tools, an afterthought as you seem to imply, then every semi popular PC game ever released would come with great tools and grow a thriving mod community to support it and extend its shelf life, not the precious few there are at any given period.

Like you said, it's the same idea. Just varied implementations. Unreal's implementation is different to Half-Life's which is different to LBP's. The idea is the same, the goal is the same, and there's just the natural difference of having different people working on it. Sony wanted full control so it's a fully closed system that you can only work within the game and with what the developers provide, that's the main difference. Most of what you've brought up as differences is insignificant in the end as the result is the same. User creations, and playability of such.

Donkey Kong Country Returns is a platformer and so is New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Different people made them with some different ideas but the goal is the same, retro side scrolling platforming fun, and that's what you get. Someone might prefer one to the other but that doesn't make them wholly different gameplay genres/beasts.

Agnates said:

Like you said, it's the same idea. Just varied implementations. Unreal's implementation is different to Half-Life's which is different to LBP's. The idea is the same, the goal is the same, and there's just the natural difference of having different people working on it. Sony wanted full control so it's a fully closed system that you can only work within the game and with what the developers provide, that's the main difference. Most of what you've brought up as differences is insignificant in the end as the result is the same. User creations, and playability of such.

Donkey Kong Country Returns is a platformer and so is New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Different people made them with some different ideas but the goal is the same, retro side scrolling platforming fun, and that's what you get. Someone might prefer one to the other but that doesn't make them wholly different gameplay genres/beasts.

Cannot agree with this. A game like Half-Life is a FPS ONLY, that is all it is. Everything that goes with it are external extras, perks of the PC scene. LBP is an online community platformer focused on giving the players the tools to make their own levels, share them and play them instantly in the game. They are two very very very different products.

This is still going...?

Agnates said:

Wut? Half-Life has been turned into more varied genres than LBP has, all by tools the developers provided. They made a level editor, they made an SDK, they made it possible to import content from other tools. Just like the LBP creators made the level editor.  What does the genre have to do with anything? LBP is a dodgy floaty platformer. So what? And do I really need to repeat how easy it is to play custom levels for like the fourth time? Connect to a server people are playing such a level. Done. You even said earlier ease is not the point yet now repeat how effortless and instant it is. User created content played by users. Same difference. And for like the third time, Trackmania has the editor in the game, tracks can be acquired in the same way I mentioned for HL. Still, it's all the same idea. Saying "community" doesn't mean much. It's the PC, keeping in touch and sharing with likeminded people is of the easiest things, with messengers, forums, websites and all sorts of things, including Valve's own. What does it matter it's not in the game interface itself when it's just as possible and easy? Trying to create an interface within the game would simply be redundant on PC, while it's necessary on PS3.  Anyway, all this is meaningless to this point. But whatever, let's agree you're wrong to disagree, we're not going to see eye to eye.

Half-life is just Half-Life. Everything it has turned into is OUTSIDE the game. Its not a part of the game, its not a design decision of the game. What part of that is so hard to understand. Half-Life is a single player FPS. LBP is an online platformer that allows users to play, creat and share creations in game with instant access to millions of levels. Huge difference.

Foolz said:

Fixed.

Shut up the both of you and concentrate on Foolz's sig. I just noticed it, why is there a dude with a chefs hat on his nads?

You know what this topic needs?

CRANE!